Aman Khan is Director of Product at Arize AI, an observability company for AI engineers at companies like Uber, Instacart, and Discord. Previously he was an AI Product Manager at Spotify on the ML Platform team, enabling hundreds of engineers to build and ship products across the company. He has also led and worked on products at Cruise, Zipline, and Apple. In our conversation, we discuss:

• What is an “AI product manager”?

• How to break into AI PM

• What separates top 5% AI PMs

• How to thrive as an individual-contributor PM

• Common pitfalls to avoid when building AI products

• The importance of energy and curiosity in product roles

• Much more

—

Brought to you by:

• Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application

• Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

• Paragon—Ship every SaaS integration your customers want

—

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/becoming-an-ai-pm-aman-khan

—

Where to find Aman Khan:

• X: https://x.com/_amankhan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanberkeley/

• Website: https://amanalikhan.com/

—

Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

—

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Aman’s background

(06:16) Understanding AI product management roles

(13:29) Getting started as an AI product manager

(18:14) Building a portfolio and standing out

(22:31) Why product management is not dead

(28:56) How to thrive as an AI product manager

(35:42) Finding good ideas that are AI-oriented

(39:27) Be careful not to automate away every customer experience

(42:53) What separates top 5% AI PMs

(46:55) Key habits for long-term IC success

(52:48) The importance of energy in meetings

(57:00) Wandering vs. waiting

(01:01:41) Amplifying signal through AI tools

(01:03:18) Just have fun

(01:05:36) Lightning round

—

Referenced:

• AI Resources and Tools for PMs (Updated Oct 2024): https://open.substack.com/pub/amankhan1/p/ai-resources-and-tools-for-pms-updated

• Unlocking the AI PM Dream: Your Roadmap to Success: https://amankhan1.substack.com/p/unlocking-the-ai-pm-dream-your-roadmap

• Arize: https://arize.com/

• Ryzen: https://www.amd.com/en/products/processors/business-systems/ryzen-ai.html

• NotebookLM: https://notebooklm.google/

• Figma: https://www.figma.com/

• Cursor: https://www.cursor.com/

• Replit: https://replit.com/

• Excalidraw: https://excalidraw.com/

• Vercel: https://vercel.com/

• v0: https://v0.dev/

• How Airbnb Proved That Storytelling Is the Most Important Skill in Design: https://www.inc.com/yazin-akkawi/the-surprising-technique-airbnb-uses-to-better-sell-an-experience.html

• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach

• Midjourney: https://www.midjourney.com/

• Dall-E: https://openai.com/index/dall-e-3/

• Introducing the Realtime API: https://openai.com/index/introducing-the-realtime-api/

• Intro to Large Language Models | Andrej Karpathy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjkBMFhNj_g

• Watch Me Build an App in 60 Minutes With o1 and Cursor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Zmhe6_T-xU

• Greg Isenberg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gisenberg/

• Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/

• Instacart: https://www.instacart.com/

• How to grow a subscription business | Yuriy Timen (Grammarly, Canva, Airtable): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/transform-your-subscription-growth

• When Identifying the Problem Isn’t Enough: Lessons from Boxed Cake Mix by Ann M. Aly, TechFlow Director of Human Centered Design: https://www.techflow.com/when-identifying-the-problem-isnt-enough-lessons-from-boxed-cake-mix/

• Waymo: https://waymo.com/

• The Ikea effect: https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/ikea-effect

• Blue Apron: https://www.blueapron.com/

• Unorthodox PM wisdom: Automating user insights, unselling job candidates, logging every decision, more | Kevin Yien (Stripe, Square, Mutiny): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/unorthodox-pm-wisdom-kevin-yien

• LeBron James: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeBron_James

• The Secrets Behind Lyft’s Dynamic Culture: https://www.forbes.com/sites/marissaperetz/2018/05/16/the-secrets-behind-lyfts-dynamic-culture/

• Aparna Dhinakaran on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aparnadhinakaran/

• Why most public speaking advice is wrong—and how to finally overcome your speaking anxiety | Tristan de Montebello (CEO & co-founder of Ultraspeaking): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/master-public-speaking-tristan-de-montebello

• Ultraspeaking: https://ultraspeaking.com/lenny/

• A Short History of Nearly Everything: https://www.amazon.com/Short-History-Nearly-Everything/dp/076790818X

• Designing Your Life: How to Build a Well-Lived, Joyful Life: https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Your-Life-Well-Lived-Joyful/dp/1101875321

• Tour de France: Unchained on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81153133

• Formula 1: Drive to Survive on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80204890

• Websim: https://websim.ai/

• Appeel Books: https://appeel.brandeditems.com/

• Steve Jobs quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/374630-your-time-is-limited-so-don-t-waste-it-living-someone#

• Becoming a conscious leader: Leading without fear, finding your life’s objective fu…

The full schedule for Latent Space LIVE! at NeurIPS has been announced, featuring Best of 2024 overview talks for the AI Startup Landscape, Computer Vision, Open Models, Transformers Killers, Synthetic Data, Agents, and Scaling, and speakers from Sarah Guo of Conviction, Roboflow, AI2/Meta, Recursal/Together, HuggingFace, OpenHands and SemiAnalysis. Join us for the IRL event/Livestream!

Alessio will also be holding a meetup at AWS Re:Invent in Las Vegas this Wednesday. See our new Events page for dates of AI Engineer Summit, Singapore, and World’s Fair in 2025. LAST CALL for questions for our big 2024 recap episode! Submit questions and messages on Speakpipe here for a chance to appear on the show!

When we first observed that GPT Wrappers are Good, Actually, we did not even have Bolt on our radar. Since we recorded our Anthropic episode discussing building Agents with the new Claude 3.5 Sonnet, Bolt.new (by Stackblitz) has easily cleared the $8m ARR bar, repeating and accelerating its initial $4m feat.

There are very many AI code generators and VS Code forks out there, but Bolt probably broke through initially because of its incredible zero shot low effort app generation:

But as we explain in the pod, Bolt also emphasized deploy (Netlify)/ backend (Supabase)/ fullstack capabilities on top of Stackblitz’s existing WebContainer full-WASM-powered-developer-environment-in-the-browser tech. Since then, the team has been shipping like mad (with weekly office hours), with bugfixing, full screen, multi-device, long context, diff based edits (using speculative decoding like we covered in Inference, Fast and Slow).

All of this has captured the imagination of low/no code builders like Greg Isenberg and many others on YouTube/TikTok/Reddit/X/Linkedin etc:

Just as with Fireworks, our relationship with Bolt/Stackblitz goes a bit deeper than normal – swyx advised the launch and got a front row seat to this epic journey, as well as demoed it with Realtime Voice at the recent OpenAI Dev Day. So we are very proud to be the first/closest to tell the full open story of Bolt/Stackblitz!

Flow Engineering + Qodo/AlphaCodium Update

In year 2 of the pod we have been on a roll getting former guests to return as guest cohosts (Harrison Chase, Aman Sanger, Jon Frankle), and it was a pleasure to catch Itamar Friedman back on the pod, giving us an update on all things Qodo and Testing Agents from our last catchup a year and a half ago:

Qodo (they renamed in September) went viral in early January this year with AlphaCodium (paper here, code here) beating DeepMind’s AlphaCode with high efficiency:

With a simple problem solving code agent:

* The first step is to have the model reason about the problem. They describe it using bullet points and focus on the goal, inputs, outputs, rules, constraints, and any other relevant details.

* Then, they make the model reason about the public tests and come up with an explanation of why the input leads to that particular output.

* The model generates two to three potential solutions in text and ranks them in terms of correctness, simplicity, and robustness.

* Then, it generates more diverse tests for the problem, covering cases not part of the original public tests.

* Iteratively, pick a solution, generate the code, and run it on a few test cases.

* If the tests fail, improve the code and repeat the process until the code passes every test.

swyx has previously written similar thoughts on types vs tests for putting bounds on program behavior, but AlphaCodium extends this to AI generated tests and code.

More recently, Itamar has also shown that AlphaCodium’s techniques also extend well to the o1 models:

Making Flow Engineering a useful technique to improve code model performance on every model. This is something we see AI Engineers uniquely well positioned to do compared to ML Engineers/Researchers.

Full Video Podcast

Like and subscribe!

Show Notes

* Itamar

* Qodo

* First episode

* Eric

* Bolt

* StackBlitz

* Thinkster

* AlphaCodium

* WebContainers

Chapters

* 00:00:00 Introductions & Updates

* 00:06:01 Generic vs. Specific AI Agents

* 00:07:40 Maintaining vs Creating with AI

* 00:17:46 Human vs Agent Computer Interfaces

* 00:20:15 Why Docker doesn’t work for Bolt

* 00:24:23 Creating Testing and Code Review Loops

* 00:28:07 Bolt’s Task Breakdown Flow

* 00:31:04 AI in Complex Enterprise Environments

* 00:41:43 AlphaCodium

* 00:44:39 Strategies for Breaking Down Complex Tasks

* 00:45:22 Building in Open Source

* 00:50:35 Choosing a product as a founder

* 00:59:03 Reflections on Bolt Success

* 01:06:07 Building a B2C GTM

* 01:18:11 AI Capabilities and Pricing Tiers

* 01:20:28 What makes Bolt unique

* 01:23:07 Future Growth and Product Development

* 01:29:06 Competitive Landscape in AI Engineering

* 01:30:01 Advice to Founders and Embracing AI

* 01:32:20 Having a baby and completing an Iron Man

Transcript

Alessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I’m joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai.

Swyx [00:00:12]: Hey, and today we’re still in our sort of makeshift in-between studio, but we’re very delighted to have a former returning guest host, Itamar. Welcome back.

Itamar [00:00:21]: Great to be here after a year or more. Yeah, a year and a half.

Swyx [00:00:24]: You’re one of our earliest guests on Agents. Now you’re CEO co-founder of Kodo. Right. Which has just been renamed. You also raised a $40 million Series A, and we can get caught up on everything, but we’re also delighted to have our new guest, Eric. Welcome.

Eric [00:00:42]: Thank you. Excited to be here. Should I say Bolt or StackBlitz?

Swyx [00:00:45]: Like, is it like its own company now or?

Eric [00:00:47]: Yeah. Bolt’s definitely bolt.new. That’s the thing that we’re probably the most known for, I imagine, at this point.

Swyx<…

There is a common thread among many of the predictions and trends posts that typically blossom across the web as the year draws to a close: AI agents are poised to revolutionize (a word we don’t use lightly) work in 2025. The frontier AI models — ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, Llama, and a few others — have captured imaginations and led to various uses throughout the business world. But these chatbots, which deliver answers to natural-language queries, will pale compared to agentic AI, which sets off to complete tasks that require multiple steps autonomously. In this short midweek episode, Neville and Shel delve into agentic AI and its possibilities for communicators, along with five other digital marketing trends.

Links from this episode:

• Top 2025 digital marketing trends: AI, MMM, and more
• Greg Isenberg’s list of agentic AI possibilities on LinkedIn

---

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, December 23.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

---

Raw transcript:

Hi everybody, and welcome to episode number 439 of four immediate release. I’m She Holtz. And I’m Neville Hobson. We are close to Christmas, the time of year when marketers, communicators, and everyone comes out with predictions and trends for 2025, the come following year which is that year, we have one here.

We’ve talked about a couple recently, and this one’s actually quite interesting. Last week Google celebrated 25 years of they say transforming how we search and discover and shared its vision for the top marketing trends shaping 2025. From smarter tools like AI powered marketing mix models to the rise of shoppable video, Google says, the future promises more intuitive, ethical, and consumer centric approaches.

We’ll explore these trends right after this. We will also see AI agents simplifying complex workflows and mindful [00:01:00] marketing addressing consumer decision fatigue. These trends reflect a pivotal moment where technology meets responsibility, paving the way for a more sustainable and inclusive marketing future.

Google’s insights highlight six key digital marketing trends poised to shape 2025. Let’s look into what this means for businesses and marketers alike. The first one, the evolution of marketing mix models and is a statistical analysis tool that helps marketers evaluate the effectiveness of their marketing campaigns and determine how different marketing tactics impact sales.

Media fragmentation and budget constraints, mms are becoming smarter, faster, and more granular. Tools like Google’s Meridian, a highly customizable modeling framework enable realtime transparent insights into cross channel performance. Second, AI agents as simplifiers. These will revolutionize data management enabling seamless integration of [00:02:00] multimodal information for business operations.

These chief Simplifier offices as Google dubs them simplify complex workflows and improve efficiency. This slots right into all the buzz and the hype and the talk in recent weeks about AI agents and how that is crucial in 2025. Third rise of shoppable video. Social commerce continues to grow with shoppable YouTube videos offering consumers seamless purchase options.

Brands are encouraged to integrate product feeds, turn ads into storefronts, and partner with creators. Fourth, mindful marketing for decision fatigue with consumers. Overwhelmed by information brands should prioritize hyper-relevant consented data to create meaningful, simplified marketing experiences that alleviate decision distress.

I was actually conscious shell when I was looking into this, all the buzz phrases that pop out in this decision. Distress. Great one, isn’t it? That’s a new one to me. Fifth AI driven app [00:03:00] marketing. The focus shifts from app installs to in-app engagement with AI powered features, enhancing user experiences and driving specific actions such as purchases and content discovery.

And sixth ethical and sustainable marketing. Ethical imperatives, including sustainability. Transparency in AI generated content and inclusivity are essential for long-term consumer trust and brand loyalty. So these trends reflect a shift towards more personalized, ethical, and technologically integrated marketing practices.

These are themes that are threaded through some of the conversations we’ve had in recent months in previous episodes of this podcast. You can take a look a bit more closely at some of these. One that strikes me as pretty key. I perhaps, based on my focus on what others have been talking about, AI agents as 2025 is the year forward, as I mentioned, is precisely this AI agents as [00:04:00] simplifies.

It strikes me, that is a nice phrase, chief simplify officers that you can really. Equate that to, as Google calls it, a representative advance transformative advancement in 2025, building on the foundation laid by large language models in 2024. So that’s one I think that we ought to be paying very close attention to.

What’s your thinking shell about these trends? I think they’re all spot on. I don’t disagree with any of them. The marketing mix model, I think is inevitable just based on the fact that this is data that’s available and it’s really just a matter of having the AI tools that can analyze it and, prompting them or setting them up to analyze effectively all of the different inputs against the output.

There’s so many different. Marketing elements that can be factored into these models. It can deal with time, it can deal with place, it can deal [00:05:00] with content. Just all kinds of different inputs and which ones are having impacts on the company’s sales. And the company’s bottom line yeah, is, it’s pretty clear that AI can simplify that and speed it up.

I the age agentic AI is what really excites me. These days. And as you probably know, Google launched Gemini 2.0, the first model in that family of models yesterday. And it is AgTech. That’s the whole point of the 2.0. And there was a post on LinkedIn. I don’t remember who shared this.

I copied it and. Saved it without noting who it was. I only saw it because our friend Jeremiah Ang was commenting on it. But it was just a list of some of the things that Agentic AI is going to do for you. And it’s things like imagine your acquisition agent runs 50 meme accounts simultaneously, testing hooks across different niches, including a thousand posts daily until it finds.[00:06:00]

What hits your research agent analyzes a hundred thousand tweets per hour. Finding unmet needs and feature requests that no one’s building for your content agent creates 200 unique hooks daily across X, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Learning from each response and optimizing for what works. And this list goes on and on.

The idea that you can assign. A task to an AI and it just goes out and does it, regardless of how many steps it takes and how much time it takes. Some of these things you’re probably looking at hours, days. Some of them could take weeks and it’ll come back to you if it has a question as it’s going through this process.

This is. Probably the most dramatic change that we’re going to see computing bring to work and life since the introduction of the pc. This is going to be huge and a among these trends that you listed this is the big one. This is the one that think people are gonna be latching onto.

Now think how quickly it’s going to [00:07:00] change is. Going to be a question of how quickly adoption happens in organizations and based on what we’re seeing so far. Probably not overnight, right? Because you’re still gonna have people dealing with the governance of these things and the security issues and the like.

But ultimately this is a really big deal. Yeah I Google talk about that at length and in fact the use of the word agentic. I saw a number of people talking last week and I was actually chatting with some folks on this very topic that’s predicted to be, you know how things are the word of the year for 2025.

I was curious myself even that I, I realized I knew the word and the use that’s being applied to now is apt for, its. Definition of, what is the word agentic. And according to many dictionaries including this one dictionary, wh…

There is a common thread among many of the predictions and trends posts that typically blossom across the web as the year draws to a close: AI agents are poised to revolutionize (a word we don’t use lightly) work in 2025. The frontier AI models — ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude, Llama, and a few others — have captured imaginations and led to various uses throughout the business world. But these chatbots, which deliver answers to natural-language queries, will pale compared to agentic AI, which sets off to complete tasks that require multiple steps autonomously. In this short midweek episode, Neville and Shel delve into agentic AI and its possibilities for communicators, along with five other digital marketing trends.

Links from this episode:

• Top 2025 digital marketing trends: AI, MMM, and more
• Greg Isenberg’s list of agentic AI possibilities on LinkedIn

---

The next monthly, long-form episode of FIR will drop on Monday, December 23.

We host a Communicators Zoom Chat most Thursdays at 1 p.m. ET. To obtain the credentials needed to participate, contact Shel or Neville directly, request them in our Facebook group, or email [email protected].

Special thanks to Jay Moonah for the opening and closing music.

You can find the stories from which Shel’s FIR content is selected at Shel’s Link Blog. Shel has started a metaverse-focused Flipboard magazine. You can catch up with both co-hosts on Neville’s blog and Shel’s blog.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this podcast are Shel’s and Neville’s and do not reflect the views of their employers and/or clients.

---

Raw transcript:

Hi everybody, and welcome to episode number 439 of four immediate release. I’m She Holtz. And I’m Neville Hobson. We are close to Christmas, the time of year when marketers, communicators, and everyone comes out with predictions and trends for 2025, the come following year which is that year, we have one here.

We’ve talked about a couple recently, and this one’s actually quite interesting. Last week Google celebrated 25 years of they say transforming how we search and discover and shared its vision for the top marketing trends shaping 2025. From smarter tools like AI powered marketing mix models to the rise of shoppable video, Google says, the future promises more intuitive, ethical, and consumer centric approaches.

We’ll explore these trends right after this. We will also see AI agents simplifying complex workflows and mindful [00:01:00] marketing addressing consumer decision fatigue. These trends reflect a pivotal moment where technology meets responsibility, paving the way for a more sustainable and inclusive marketing future.

Google’s insights highlight six key digital marketing trends poised to shape 2025. Let’s look into what this means for businesses and marketers alike. The first one, the evolution of marketing mix models and is a statistical analysis tool that helps marketers evaluate the effectiveness of their marketing campaigns and determine how different marketing tactics impact sales.

Media fragmentation and budget constraints, mms are becoming smarter, faster, and more granular. Tools like Google’s Meridian, a highly customizable modeling framework enable realtime transparent insights into cross channel performance. Second, AI agents as simplifiers. These will revolutionize data management enabling seamless integration of [00:02:00] multimodal information for business operations.

These chief Simplifier offices as Google dubs them simplify complex workflows and improve efficiency. This slots right into all the buzz and the hype and the talk in recent weeks about AI agents and how that is crucial in 2025. Third rise of shoppable video. Social commerce continues to grow with shoppable YouTube videos offering consumers seamless purchase options.

Brands are encouraged to integrate product feeds, turn ads into storefronts, and partner with creators. Fourth, mindful marketing for decision fatigue with consumers. Overwhelmed by information brands should prioritize hyper-relevant consented data to create meaningful, simplified marketing experiences that alleviate decision distress.

I was actually conscious shell when I was looking into this, all the buzz phrases that pop out in this decision. Distress. Great one, isn’t it? That’s a new one to me. Fifth AI driven app [00:03:00] marketing. The focus shifts from app installs to in-app engagement with AI powered features, enhancing user experiences and driving specific actions such as purchases and content discovery.

And sixth ethical and sustainable marketing. Ethical imperatives, including sustainability. Transparency in AI generated content and inclusivity are essential for long-term consumer trust and brand loyalty. So these trends reflect a shift towards more personalized, ethical, and technologically integrated marketing practices.

These are themes that are threaded through some of the conversations we’ve had in recent months in previous episodes of this podcast. You can take a look a bit more closely at some of these. One that strikes me as pretty key. I perhaps, based on my focus on what others have been talking about, AI agents as 2025 is the year forward, as I mentioned, is precisely this AI agents as [00:04:00] simplifies.

It strikes me, that is a nice phrase, chief simplify officers that you can really. Equate that to, as Google calls it, a representative advance transformative advancement in 2025, building on the foundation laid by large language models in 2024. So that’s one I think that we ought to be paying very close attention to.

What’s your thinking shell about these trends? I think they’re all spot on. I don’t disagree with any of them. The marketing mix model, I think is inevitable just based on the fact that this is data that’s available and it’s really just a matter of having the AI tools that can analyze it and, prompting them or setting them up to analyze effectively all of the different inputs against the output.

There’s so many different. Marketing elements that can be factored into these models. It can deal with time, it can deal with place, it can deal [00:05:00] with content. Just all kinds of different inputs and which ones are having impacts on the company’s sales. And the company’s bottom line yeah, is, it’s pretty clear that AI can simplify that and speed it up.

I the age agentic AI is what really excites me. These days. And as you probably know, Google launched Gemini 2.0, the first model in that family of models yesterday. And it is AgTech. That’s the whole point of the 2.0. And there was a post on LinkedIn. I don’t remember who shared this.

I copied it and. Saved it without noting who it was. I only saw it because our friend Jeremiah Ang was commenting on it. But it was just a list of some of the things that Agentic AI is going to do for you. And it’s things like imagine your acquisition agent runs 50 meme accounts simultaneously, testing hooks across different niches, including a thousand posts daily until it finds.[00:06:00]

What hits your research agent analyzes a hundred thousand tweets per hour. Finding unmet needs and feature requests that no one’s building for your content agent creates 200 unique hooks daily across X, LinkedIn, and TikTok. Learning from each response and optimizing for what works. And this list goes on and on.

The idea that you can assign. A task to an AI and it just goes out and does it, regardless of how many steps it takes and how much time it takes. Some of these things you’re probably looking at hours, days. Some of them could take weeks and it’ll come back to you if it has a question as it’s going through this process.

This is. Probably the most dramatic change that we’re going to see computing bring to work and life since the introduction of the pc. This is going to be huge and a among these trends that you listed this is the big one. This is the one that think people are gonna be latching onto.

Now think how quickly it’s going to [00:07:00] change is. Going to be a question of how quickly adoption happens in organizations and based on what we’re seeing so far. Probably not overnight, right? Because you’re still gonna have people dealing with the governance of these things and the security issues and the like.

But ultimately this is a really big deal. Yeah I Google talk about that at length and in fact the use of the word agentic. I saw a number of people talking last week and I was actually chatting with some folks on this very topic that’s predicted to be, you know how things are the word of the year for 2025.

I was curious myself even that I, I realized I knew the word and the use that’s being applied to now is apt for, its. Definition of, what is the word agentic. And according to many dictionaries including this one dictionary, wh…

This episode is a live recording from the Hacker House fireside chat on December 14th, 2024, in the Codédex community during the Mini Holiday Hackathon. ❄️

We invited Steve Chen, Founder and Executive Director at Code & Coffee, to share his non-traditional path to tech — from growing up as a restaurant kid in the DC metro area, dropping out of college, and working as a food delivery driver, to joining a coding bootcamp in Florida, becoming a Software Engineer at Grubhub through a cold email, Head of Software Quality Automation at Framebridge, and running the biggest coding meetup in the U.S. after the pandemic (367 total events in 2024). Steve and Sonny traded notes on their Asian American upbringing, hours logged in Team Fortress and Dota 2, lessons learned from scaling a tech community IRL, and more. Towards the end of the episode, we also had a Q&A with questions from the audience.

This episode is a must-listen if you’re trying to break into tech in 2025 as a bootcamp grad or self-taught developer.

Want to see more Boba Talk? Follow us ⁠⁠⁠⁠@boba_talk⁠⁠⁠ on Twitter! If you like this episode, please leave a review!

Show Notes:

(0:00) Intro

(1:21) Dropping out of college and coding bootcamp

(3:01) Meetups, pandemic, Code & Coffee

(8:32) Black sheep in the Asian household

(10:21) Gaming nostalgia: Team Fortress and Dota 2 stories

(15:34) Scaling a community, community rituals (Intro Circles)

(23:25) From startup to Grubhub to Framebridge

(28:17) Lessons learned from Code & Coffee

(33:51) Non-traditional path to tech

(41:10) Being someone that you want to work with and “How to Win Friends”

(43:35) @Valérie: What’s one piece of advice for your younger self?

(47:13) @ValentineL: Are you expanding Code & Coffee to new countries?

(56:33) @Hlin245: Have you had any identity struggles in tech?

(60:05) @Milan: What are the requirements for QA testers?

(61:03) Outro

 

Episode links:

• ☕️ Code & Coffee
• 💣 Team Fortress
• 🗺️ Dota 2
• 🎮 LAN party
• 🍕 Grubhub

• 🖼️ Framebridge
• 🐥 Rubber duck debugging
• 👨🏼‍💻 Greg Isenberg
• 📕 How to Win Friends & Influence People

 

Keep up with Steve:

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/stevechendc
• Sonar: sonarsource.com

 

Boba Talk:

• Host: Sonny Li
• Videographer: Eric Romere
• Producer: Jay Yow

 

Codédex:

The Boba Talk podcast has been brought to you by Codédex. We are a learn to code platform with 250K+ happy users. Based in Brooklyn, NY.

• Website: codedex.io
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